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What are your thoughts on the inherent conflict between “gutting the deep state” and forcing Gabbard to acknowledge fealty to FISA- which is arguably the cornerstone capability of “the deep state”?
A brutal concession to make. Peter Thiel actually highlighted 702 in his recent piece that appeared in the Financial Times as something that needed to go. It's clear that she was forced to make this concession if she wants the role.
Yeah that’s what I’m getting at. I’m interested to know your thoughts on that occurrence and what that means regarding any veracity to the claim that the “deep state” needs to be gutted, or more importantly, if it even can be since the purveyors of it are apparently also the gatekeepers to presidential cabinet appointments. In other words, Trump and co. clearly aren’t in control if they’re given an ultimatum and are forced to capitulate. No?
Or you just say that in order to get nominated. People certainly obfuscate their views in order to get nominated all the time. We won't know until Gabbard both goes through the hearings and what she does once in office.
She had already been nominated. I think you're confusing nomination with confirmation. If your confirmation is dependent upon keeping in place that which you were nominated to destroy, there's a problem and there should be no rationalization of it.
What they do is important, not what they say. That Gabbard has to nod at FISA means as little or less as any of us nodding to HRs latest mandatory training.
Gabbard is military and she has a real commander. FISA is 💩 next to that, to think otherwise is foolish legalism.
We’re 🇺🇸 moving past law, Folks.
Politics is Power, paper but forms.
You 🌎 wanted America 🇺🇸 to grow up? WE ARE.
Seek no solace nor find phantom fears in Laws or Courts.
As you say, contrary to the death throes we saw the mainstream media and Obama-era democrats engage in (such as going back to the thoroughly and popularly debunked claims that Trump is a Nazi, the "Very Fine People" hoax, etc), the Intel Community did not interfere in the 2024 election. The 50 named individuals did not go all out trying to undermine Trump's candidacy, or the credibility of any of his closest allies -- only Matt Gaetz was ejected from orbit, and then only because he couldn't keep is dick in his pants. Vivek left the party after demonstrating his deeply held Americana Last prejudices.
So then why would these 50 individuals just go quietly to the career guillotine? By losing their security clearance, their careers are over. They can't really even be credible media pundits on the propaganda outlets. What were they thinking over the past summer?
One possibility is that they recognized that any participation in the election would just create an opportunity to relitigate the Hunter Biden coverup. Since it was well documented by the beginning of the summer that they had lied (essentially all of the points made at the top of the EO), they understood their participation would be counter-productive.
On their future career prospects... Private University lecturer is about the only option that comes to mind, beyond pseudonymous Pulp Spy Thriller author (likely aided by ChatGPT).
Few or none of those people are actively using their clearances in their post-government career roles. Most of them have comfy quiet sinecures at universities and or boards of trustees, corporate boards, etc. Now that corporate media is capitulating to full on "Trump collaboration" status, they don't want those guys on TV anymore. Even David Frum (not from that list but of the same ilk) was blocked from appearing on an episode the "Morning Joe" (favorite haunt of ex-deep staters for the past 8 years) in November because they were too worried that he would be mean to Trump.
I'm sure quite recently. Classified information is one of the major currencies within D.C., which is why it's so common for these kinds of people to hold onto their clearances for as long as possible.
They hang on to them so they can work in the Military Industrial Complex and 'private security' or 'financial analysis' industries. These people are already rich, so they're really not materially harmed by this action.
If they have friends that are still active inside the Intelligence Community, not having clearance means they can't even talk shop around the dinner table. It will probably mean they won't even be invited to the dinner parties in their friend circle.
Gosh, that’s sounds like a huge nothing-burger. The only reason to have a security clearance after you’re no longer in active service is to work in the Military Industrial Complex and PMRC industry.
All of these people are already rich and don’t need the money, so this isn’t going to harm them in the least.
Like most MAGA 2.0 ‘big deals’, it’s all spectacle and no hammer.
There is no "talking shop" at the dinner table, unless the dinner table is in a SCIF.
The value in the clearance is having access to both information and power from participating in decision-making. Once the clearance is inactive, they have been at such a high level that they have obligations still, just no power. "The Village" from "The Prisoner" has more than a few grains of truth.
The muted response and dejection from progs is the loudest noise in the room so far. They really are just deeply defeated.
Also, if you’re around, I’ll be visiting Split later this week if you have the time and inclination to meet a reader, or if you have recommendations to give—is the squid ink risotto as essential as they say?
I agree with the author this will not stop the deep state. The natural incentives on them are all about self protection and proliferation of the bureaucracy. It will always grow back.
'During the campaign, I couldn’t help but notice how muted the intel community was in comparison to 2016 and 2020. I still can’t explain it'
Maybe because they have (also) observed that the Biden admin did not take place?
Compact mag: The Biden Administration Did Not Take Place
Nathan Pinkoski
When Jean Baudrillard wrote his infamous 1991 polemic The Gulf War Did Not Take Place, his point was not to deny the existence of the conflict in the Persian Gulf. It was, rather, a reflection on the changing character of war.
The primary arena of military power, Baudrillard argued, had shifted from the use of actual force to the control of the information space. Information technology and those who controlled it—the media and the military—had captured reality.
The Biden administration likewise revealed the changing character of Western politics. Its actions did not proceed from the political will of the executive. It was, instead, a non-administration, an experiment that aimed to put an end to politics, and to all political threats to a unified system of control.
The speed at which Trump’s opponents have retreated, after all their rhetoric about the existential threat he posed to democracy, “clearly shows that on all sides”—as Baudrillard would say—that the Biden administration “is considered not to have taken place.”
"The speed at which Trump’s opponents have retreated, after all their rhetoric about the existential threat he posed to democracy, “clearly shows that on all sides”—as Baudrillard would say—that the Biden administration “is considered not to have taken place.”
The real objection to Trump was that he said the quiet parts out loud. There is no longer any real objection to Trump because there is no longer any real reason to keep up the pretenses - the United States is an empire, and the West are the vassals, puppets, lackeys, flunkies, catamites and buttbois to the United States.
Removing security clearances is a symbolic gesture which signals that he did not forget betrayal and conspiracy which formed against his presidency.
At the same time he reiterated that he will be president of peace and of unity, where he tried to signal that he will not retaliate to entire community.
This is quite naiive. It spoke to his supporters, but he is not running for reelection. He just won a mandate to undo Bidens term, which he most certainly did not do. What further complicates things, and is far more interesting in longer time arc is set of pardons that Biden issued on the day of inauguration. This gesture has singlehandedly undone "president of unity" goal because it had put a big wall between democrats and Trump. He even pardoned members of his own family who are barely known to anyone, to signal that family is not off the table.
Once champagne wears off, it will be fun thing to look at.
Even more interesting is his EO on the creation of DOGE. In fact not a "creation" but repurposing of the USDS (United States Digital Service) which was initially created to manage the fiasco that was healthcare.gov in the Obama admin.
Essentially an IT service for federal agencies.
Trump's EO renames it the United States DOGE Service, and mandates every federal agency host a "DOGE" team with the IT cover, but also "HR Specialist", a lawyer, and the means to collect all unclassified data from the said agency.
But why didn't the eminences see this coming? Did they persuade themselves that Kamala was a done deal? Why didn't they try to derail Trump's campaign? Whatever else these people might be, they are all seasoned veterans of the dark arts and murky influences of intelligence work, so why did they just stand there like rabbits caught in the headlights while the train bore down on them?
Trump surpasses himself. We are witnessing the realisation of Yarvin's CEO Monarchist reform. The Dark Elves can come out now.
The Deep State as a whole clearly made a calculation that Trump was the lesser of two evils. They permitted the Democrats to run the election in their typical style in the Blue States, but there was no attempt to rig things en masse across any Red State this time. Presumably they calculated that a repeat of 2020 would cause a catastrophe. So they backed down and let Trump win.
Most likely the Deep State will sacrifice pawns and obsolete assets to Trump's justice. It remains to be seen what their red lines are. The ambitious strivers in the senior ranks of the intelligence agencies will cheerfully let Trump remove the dead wood. Nobody is keen to risk much for the sake of the Obamas, Bidens, Clintons and Bushs.
The Deep State survived the investigations of the 70s. They are likely to do the same now.
This is a good point. Why go to the mat for people who are on the outs anyway? And at the very least, whoever survives the Dems immolation and comes out on top (Obama or Clinton clan at this point) will need the IC much more than the IC needs them.
Punishing elderly spooks by cancelling their security clearances is less significant than cutting budgets, rescinding authorities in relation to surveillance or curtailing black ops would have been.
Trump's eagerness to take on the cartels guarantees the survival of key portions of the Deep State.
It may be worth considering the geopolitical dimension. Trump is targeting the cream of the Atlanticist old guard. Essential procedure for refocusing on Asia and Latin America. From a certain perspective, Trump is not so much challenging the Deep State as repurposing it, assisting it renew itself.
The orange fool believes Russia has lost 1 million soldiers. The Deep State is alive and well, feeding him the rope with which to hang himself. Or will Putin do the honors?
Trump issued a bunch of orders. Whether those orders are carried out effectively, is another question.
The last time we ran this experiment, we clearly saw how just about every person under Trump in the org chart just didn't carry out orders effectively, and nothing changed. My default assumption is that this will happen again.
I'd love to be pleasantly surprised. But I'm not expecting to be.
There’s a survey somewhere that says that around 40+ % of the govt employees are planning to obstruct. But surely part of DOGE is to keep an eye out for that. If it’s not, it’s not going to do the rest of its mission well.
Hit the like button at the top or bottom of this page to like this entry. Use the share and/or re-stack buttons to share this across social media. Leave a comment if the mood strikes you to do so.
And don't forget to subscribe if you haven't done so already.
What are your thoughts on the inherent conflict between “gutting the deep state” and forcing Gabbard to acknowledge fealty to FISA- which is arguably the cornerstone capability of “the deep state”?
A brutal concession to make. Peter Thiel actually highlighted 702 in his recent piece that appeared in the Financial Times as something that needed to go. It's clear that she was forced to make this concession if she wants the role.
Yeah that’s what I’m getting at. I’m interested to know your thoughts on that occurrence and what that means regarding any veracity to the claim that the “deep state” needs to be gutted, or more importantly, if it even can be since the purveyors of it are apparently also the gatekeepers to presidential cabinet appointments. In other words, Trump and co. clearly aren’t in control if they’re given an ultimatum and are forced to capitulate. No?
Zackly. This EO is theater that does nothing to change power relations.
Or you just say that in order to get nominated. People certainly obfuscate their views in order to get nominated all the time. We won't know until Gabbard both goes through the hearings and what she does once in office.
She had already been nominated. I think you're confusing nomination with confirmation. If your confirmation is dependent upon keeping in place that which you were nominated to destroy, there's a problem and there should be no rationalization of it.
We hear the same excuses every four years.
What they do is important, not what they say. That Gabbard has to nod at FISA means as little or less as any of us nodding to HRs latest mandatory training.
Gabbard is military and she has a real commander. FISA is 💩 next to that, to think otherwise is foolish legalism.
We’re 🇺🇸 moving past law, Folks.
Politics is Power, paper but forms.
You 🌎 wanted America 🇺🇸 to grow up? WE ARE.
Seek no solace nor find phantom fears in Laws or Courts.
The Democratic Party burned them down 🔥.
Thanks actually.
As you say, contrary to the death throes we saw the mainstream media and Obama-era democrats engage in (such as going back to the thoroughly and popularly debunked claims that Trump is a Nazi, the "Very Fine People" hoax, etc), the Intel Community did not interfere in the 2024 election. The 50 named individuals did not go all out trying to undermine Trump's candidacy, or the credibility of any of his closest allies -- only Matt Gaetz was ejected from orbit, and then only because he couldn't keep is dick in his pants. Vivek left the party after demonstrating his deeply held Americana Last prejudices.
So then why would these 50 individuals just go quietly to the career guillotine? By losing their security clearance, their careers are over. They can't really even be credible media pundits on the propaganda outlets. What were they thinking over the past summer?
I would LOVE to know the answer to the questions that you just posed.
One possibility is that they recognized that any participation in the election would just create an opportunity to relitigate the Hunter Biden coverup. Since it was well documented by the beginning of the summer that they had lied (essentially all of the points made at the top of the EO), they understood their participation would be counter-productive.
On their future career prospects... Private University lecturer is about the only option that comes to mind, beyond pseudonymous Pulp Spy Thriller author (likely aided by ChatGPT).
Because Bibi signaled that Don is his guy.
Few or none of those people are actively using their clearances in their post-government career roles. Most of them have comfy quiet sinecures at universities and or boards of trustees, corporate boards, etc. Now that corporate media is capitulating to full on "Trump collaboration" status, they don't want those guys on TV anymore. Even David Frum (not from that list but of the same ilk) was blocked from appearing on an episode the "Morning Joe" (favorite haunt of ex-deep staters for the past 8 years) in November because they were too worried that he would be mean to Trump.
When was the last time any of these people used these clearances?
I'm sure quite recently. Classified information is one of the major currencies within D.C., which is why it's so common for these kinds of people to hold onto their clearances for as long as possible.
They hang on to them so they can work in the Military Industrial Complex and 'private security' or 'financial analysis' industries. These people are already rich, so they're really not materially harmed by this action.
It's just MAGA Spectacle.
If they have friends that are still active inside the Intelligence Community, not having clearance means they can't even talk shop around the dinner table. It will probably mean they won't even be invited to the dinner parties in their friend circle.
Gosh, that’s sounds like a huge nothing-burger. The only reason to have a security clearance after you’re no longer in active service is to work in the Military Industrial Complex and PMRC industry.
All of these people are already rich and don’t need the money, so this isn’t going to harm them in the least.
Like most MAGA 2.0 ‘big deals’, it’s all spectacle and no hammer.
There is no "talking shop" at the dinner table, unless the dinner table is in a SCIF.
The value in the clearance is having access to both information and power from participating in decision-making. Once the clearance is inactive, they have been at such a high level that they have obligations still, just no power. "The Village" from "The Prisoner" has more than a few grains of truth.
The muted response and dejection from progs is the loudest noise in the room so far. They really are just deeply defeated.
Also, if you’re around, I’ll be visiting Split later this week if you have the time and inclination to meet a reader, or if you have recommendations to give—is the squid ink risotto as essential as they say?
I agree with the author this will not stop the deep state. The natural incentives on them are all about self protection and proliferation of the bureaucracy. It will always grow back.
Perhaps not death throes, but certainly hiding in the dark silent shadows and severely wounded
'During the campaign, I couldn’t help but notice how muted the intel community was in comparison to 2016 and 2020. I still can’t explain it'
Maybe because they have (also) observed that the Biden admin did not take place?
Compact mag: The Biden Administration Did Not Take Place
Nathan Pinkoski
When Jean Baudrillard wrote his infamous 1991 polemic The Gulf War Did Not Take Place, his point was not to deny the existence of the conflict in the Persian Gulf. It was, rather, a reflection on the changing character of war.
The primary arena of military power, Baudrillard argued, had shifted from the use of actual force to the control of the information space. Information technology and those who controlled it—the media and the military—had captured reality.
The Biden administration likewise revealed the changing character of Western politics. Its actions did not proceed from the political will of the executive. It was, instead, a non-administration, an experiment that aimed to put an end to politics, and to all political threats to a unified system of control.
The speed at which Trump’s opponents have retreated, after all their rhetoric about the existential threat he posed to democracy, “clearly shows that on all sides”—as Baudrillard would say—that the Biden administration “is considered not to have taken place.”
"The speed at which Trump’s opponents have retreated, after all their rhetoric about the existential threat he posed to democracy, “clearly shows that on all sides”—as Baudrillard would say—that the Biden administration “is considered not to have taken place.”
The real objection to Trump was that he said the quiet parts out loud. There is no longer any real objection to Trump because there is no longer any real reason to keep up the pretenses - the United States is an empire, and the West are the vassals, puppets, lackeys, flunkies, catamites and buttbois to the United States.
Of course
Removing security clearances is a symbolic gesture which signals that he did not forget betrayal and conspiracy which formed against his presidency.
At the same time he reiterated that he will be president of peace and of unity, where he tried to signal that he will not retaliate to entire community.
This is quite naiive. It spoke to his supporters, but he is not running for reelection. He just won a mandate to undo Bidens term, which he most certainly did not do. What further complicates things, and is far more interesting in longer time arc is set of pardons that Biden issued on the day of inauguration. This gesture has singlehandedly undone "president of unity" goal because it had put a big wall between democrats and Trump. He even pardoned members of his own family who are barely known to anyone, to signal that family is not off the table.
Once champagne wears off, it will be fun thing to look at.
Even more interesting is his EO on the creation of DOGE. In fact not a "creation" but repurposing of the USDS (United States Digital Service) which was initially created to manage the fiasco that was healthcare.gov in the Obama admin.
Essentially an IT service for federal agencies.
Trump's EO renames it the United States DOGE Service, and mandates every federal agency host a "DOGE" team with the IT cover, but also "HR Specialist", a lawyer, and the means to collect all unclassified data from the said agency.
This is very good stuff.
But why didn't the eminences see this coming? Did they persuade themselves that Kamala was a done deal? Why didn't they try to derail Trump's campaign? Whatever else these people might be, they are all seasoned veterans of the dark arts and murky influences of intelligence work, so why did they just stand there like rabbits caught in the headlights while the train bore down on them?
What could they have done? Real bells remain rung and signing off on the false claims was a real bell.
Trump surpasses himself. We are witnessing the realisation of Yarvin's CEO Monarchist reform. The Dark Elves can come out now.
The Deep State as a whole clearly made a calculation that Trump was the lesser of two evils. They permitted the Democrats to run the election in their typical style in the Blue States, but there was no attempt to rig things en masse across any Red State this time. Presumably they calculated that a repeat of 2020 would cause a catastrophe. So they backed down and let Trump win.
Most likely the Deep State will sacrifice pawns and obsolete assets to Trump's justice. It remains to be seen what their red lines are. The ambitious strivers in the senior ranks of the intelligence agencies will cheerfully let Trump remove the dead wood. Nobody is keen to risk much for the sake of the Obamas, Bidens, Clintons and Bushs.
The Deep State survived the investigations of the 70s. They are likely to do the same now.
This is a good point. Why go to the mat for people who are on the outs anyway? And at the very least, whoever survives the Dems immolation and comes out on top (Obama or Clinton clan at this point) will need the IC much more than the IC needs them.
*Yawn*
Let us know when Trump does something concrrete, not performative.
Lights! Camera! Action!
Get used to 4 years of an Ed Woods B-epic in the making.
Punishing elderly spooks by cancelling their security clearances is less significant than cutting budgets, rescinding authorities in relation to surveillance or curtailing black ops would have been.
Trump's eagerness to take on the cartels guarantees the survival of key portions of the Deep State.
It may be worth considering the geopolitical dimension. Trump is targeting the cream of the Atlanticist old guard. Essential procedure for refocusing on Asia and Latin America. From a certain perspective, Trump is not so much challenging the Deep State as repurposing it, assisting it renew itself.
The orange fool believes Russia has lost 1 million soldiers. The Deep State is alive and well, feeding him the rope with which to hang himself. Or will Putin do the honors?
I would urge caution and restraint.
Trump issued a bunch of orders. Whether those orders are carried out effectively, is another question.
The last time we ran this experiment, we clearly saw how just about every person under Trump in the org chart just didn't carry out orders effectively, and nothing changed. My default assumption is that this will happen again.
I'd love to be pleasantly surprised. But I'm not expecting to be.
Agreed. This is a good start (it could be far worse), but we won't know until appropriation fights.
There’s a survey somewhere that says that around 40+ % of the govt employees are planning to obstruct. But surely part of DOGE is to keep an eye out for that. If it’s not, it’s not going to do the rest of its mission well.
Éminence Gris was a great poster and this saddens me.