The Dubrovnik Interviews: Mike Cernovich - The Greatest American Alive Today
On his many wild successes, being humble to a fault, how he won Trump the election, how God is like him, and chemically, salty discoveries
Marxists insist that ‘class struggle’ is the engine of history. Some will counter with the proposition that ideas are what drives human events. For many others, it is the “Big Man” that moves metaphorical mountains.
There is no man bigger today than Mike Cernovich. Upon careful reflection, every single individual on the American side of the Atlantic Ocean has been impacted by his thoughts, his art, his activism, his journalism, and so much more, repeatedly, over the course of the typical day. “Renaissance Man” is too limiting a description of Mike Cernovich. He single-handedly secured Donald Trump’s shock 2016 electoral victory, for one. I can’t even begin to list all of his personal accomplishments in this interview (thankfully, Mike helps out here, repeatedly) because they’re simply too numerous! Yet underneath the Gorilla exterior lies the beating heart of a man in touch with the spiritual world, blessed with a humility that brings him down to Earth and makes him approachable, unlike his almost equally-impactful contemporaries like Elon Musk or Kanye West.
This interview is not a classic one; it is more a collection of ruminations from a modern day Greek Hero, a Man Out of Time. We learn not only about how he has shaped the History of the World these past several years, but also how God is like him.
"What's good for General Motors is good for the country" is a famous quote from 1953 attributed to Charles Wilson, President of GM. America was the 'Arsenal of Democracy' back then, with 50% of the world's industry located within the then 48 states. I think that this quote could use some updating and I would like to rephrase it like this: "What is good for Mike Cernovich is good for America". Here's why; you are the Everyman. You pulled yourself up from your bootstraps to get a law degree after working manual labour and serving in the US Armed Forces, led the charge for Men's Rights, heroically secured a just alimony settlement, inspired millions of Americans to give Donald Trump a chance, taught hundreds of thousands of men how to become men, personally inspired Joe Rogan to 'go for it' with his podcast, launched a cutting-edge line of Nootropics, gave us the low-down on Thai ladyboys, wrote several bestselling books, became the world's most important 'citizen journalist' by breaking story after story after story, and acted as a surrogate father figure for the entirety of the Male Millennial online cohort WHILE starting your own family. You are America's Weather vane, its barometer. If you are successful, we are successful. If you're feeling good about the way our country is headed then it certainly means that the good times are back! Is this a fair characterization of the man, Michael Cernovich?
Good times are not coming back until we become hard men (Insert meme). Hence I am optimistic about the future because we are going through a crucible. When I look at men, I feel sick. I am 43 years old! You were kicked out of the elite Spartan guard upon your 30th birthday. Yet I don’t feel any sense that these young men I pass by when walking down even a tough city street have the ability to defeat me. That must change and it will change. Brunch is cancelled!
One of the many things I find fascinating about you is how humble and magnanimous you are. You personally kicked off the Men's Rights Movement, you spearheaded this generation's obsession with physical health by way of weightlifting, you blew the cover off of GamerGate, you led the PUA Movement, and you inspired dozens and dozens of subpar copycats with your best-selling hit book "Gorilla Mindset", most notable among them Bronze Age Pervert and his semi-decent-in-places "Bronze Age Mindset". Yet you remain very grounded and not at all self-centred. Haven't you ever felt the urge to draw attention to yourself and away from all of these lessers? The temptation must have been killing you to point out each and every example of someone shamelessly stealing ideas from you. I know I’m pissed off every time I see it.
Roman Generals, upon returning to the Imperial Capital to celebrate their victories via public parade and spectacle, were said to have a slave standing behind them whispering, “Memento Mori,” which supposedly translates to, “Remember, you will die.” As a law clerk working on a case, one of my first assignments was on a murder-for-hire, i.e., a “hit man” case. I expected to see a Hollywood level amount of money being exchanged for the taking of a human life. It was a humbling surprise to see that the going rate for a competent assassin was $25,000 (adjusted for inflation). This is probably much less than in other parts of the world. While it’s true that I wrote a best selling book, produced a best selling film, forced a member of Congress to resign, and even forced the “suicide” of Jeffrey Epstein - all while looking handsome - it’s also true that my life could be ended for less than the cost of a used mid-series BMW. Momento Mori Mindset!
You are of Croatian stock like I am. Tall, violent, Balkan maniacs with a romantic sensibility. Your Croatian grandfather left Royalist Yugoslavia, and like many, chose to settle in the Chicago area. You paid homage to him by travelling to Croatia and getting in touch with your roots. How much of Gorilla Mindset comes down to having the blood of genocidal fanatics coursing through your veins? We punch well above our weight when it comes to sports, drywall taping, and annoying the fuck out of everyone on the internet with our incessant, jingoistic expressions of patriotism. Why are we so powerful, particularly sexually?
I did a 23AndMe years and years ago before I realized they would be able to bioengineer a weapon to “suicide” me from my results. But that folly of a young man aside, it was revealed during this analysis that I have elite genetics for sprinting. When I trained BJJ, people would derisively call me “explosive.” Back then BJJ guys didn’t even lift and viewed any athleticism as a form of polluting the sport. Joe Rogan gets called racist for claiming a black athlete is “athletic,” but he would say the same of the many Croatian sensations, including the original Pat Miletich.
(PJW forgot to pair Neck Force with Brain Force)
I never got much out of nutritional supplements and eventually turned to Nootropics. For years I was gobbling Paul Joseph Watson's Brain Force. I wasn't very happy with the results because half of the time after taking some I would be walking around in a state of shock, accosting random strangers in the street and asking them if they could imagine the shock that I was experiencing. The other half of the time I would somehow end up exploring various gay districts in different European cities. I don't even like dick! You have in the past developed Nootropic stacks and recommended them.....I simply couldn't handle it! Not everyone is able to take the ones that you took. You tested these on yourself. What's it like having a super-charged brain?
Nootropics are a class of pharmacological agents that boost cognitive performance just like coffee and nicotine. Imagine our Croatian grandfathers sipping espresso while smoking a cigarette! They were super charged early on. Once I took Modafinil stacked with Tren(bolone) and Test. I was at a mall and felt like Dr Manhattan or maybe Thanos. Do you know what it’s like to have access to your entire database of knowledge and experience simultaneously while also having every muscle in your body naturally hard like marble? Thankfully I only have moments of genius. Otherwise I wouldn’t enjoy some of the more simple carnal pleasures of life. I’d also probably be mean online. Lately I stack lion’s mane with cordyceps and theanine. It’s a mellow writer’s stack. You get the benefits of verbal dexterity without melting down.
Reflections on Winning the Presidency For Donald Trump
Many times you have stated that you don't talk politics offline. Yet it continues to draw you back in as your audience demands it, and as Fate commands it. You were the very first to sound the alarm, warning us that the Trump Presidency was already off of the rails when Michael Flynn was fired from the Administration. Many of us weren't convinced, (it took me up until he lobbed cruise missiles at Syria to change my mind) but you were inevitably proven correct. I STRONGLY FEEL that the collapse of the Trump Presidency, the jailing of pro-Trump demonstrators, and the destruction of any hope of a better future for us Americans was worth it just to prove that you were right all along.
Those who begin revolutions rarely end them. Usually those on the vanguard are executed or exhausted, then the managerial class steps in. In the case of Trump, his base of supporters were alive and well. I felt high on drugs the week after he won. Total Dopamine overload. Compare this to the joyless Biden voters who seem angrier in 2021 than they were in 2016! The base was pushed aside for GOP operatives and Never Trump’ers. MAGA rubes watched The Godfather and thought it would be smart to “keep your friends close and enemies closer.” Clearly that did not work out for Trump. Men in general should stop watching mafia movies. Life isn’t Goodfellas or Scarface, and you’re not Don Corleone.
Was this collapse inevitable? Or was real change possible despite the corruption of the system and the intransigence of the GOP? Can we see a repeat of November 2016 in the future? Or have the Powers-That-Be locked this shit down for good?
Will there be another Trump? Let’s hope not. The historical circumstances are such that the man Trump pretended to be will arise. Predicting or summoning such a man would have made as much sense as creating George Washington. Only destiny can make such calls.
Speaking of destinty, let's scroll back a few years and revisit the halcyon days of online political activism that occurred in the run-up to Trump's shocking 2016 victory. A revolution occurred by way of technology in which individuals, mostly disaffected white males, were able to disrupt the Presidential Campaign cycle and turn it against the establishment. You were front and centre in this disparate movement, encompassing people from the far right all the way to the less far right. The label alt.right was affixed to you, before it became toxic. There was so much hope and potential in this spontaneous eruption of anti-establishmentarianism, yet it fizzled out. Cracks appeared, with all sorts of shifty types inserting themselves into it, damaging it in the process. Can you diagnose what went wrong?
The uprising around Trump fractured for a few reasons. First was Trump himself. He immediately began betraying his base of support upon taking office. Hashtag sloganeering is acceptable when trying to get your guy elected as America is a winner-takes-all system. People claim the country needs a third party. Yet if there were three viable candidates for POTUS, the vote would split 3 days and there’d be no electoral college winner. This would mean the House of Representatives would choose the President - and under the Constitution, they wouldn’t even have to limit their choice to the three who ran for POTUS. With all that in mind, Trump took office and immediately turned into a giant cry baby who whined on Twitter all day. Why would anyone willingly debase themselves by leading a cheer team for him? Well, we saw who remained. It was the bottom-tier team of Q Anon goofs and “entrepreneurs” selling Trump silver bullion to Cringe Boomers.
A-Players like me moved on. And by the way, my self-confidence will trigger a lot of dorks. But it’s objectively true that without me in 2016, Trump would have lost. That’s why the left wing media even to this day despises me. It’s like a blood feud that rivals Israel-Palestine, except it’s one-way. I don’t care about them. They can’t get over me though. I made them all look stupid. I beat them at their own game. I got results. They’ll never get over it.
Now a bit of what some might call conspiracy theorizing: How much are wars in the Middle East worth? Trillions? How much would a war pig spend to destroy a legitimate anti-war movement? My belief has always been that certain elements of “the right” were funded by elements of the military industrial complex and told to make us all look bad via “association.” In life you’ll have wins and losses due to the nature of luck. People on the right kept losing. Every time. That’s not how it works. You would have had some wins thrown in there via chance alone. Who on “the right” got wins other than Mike Cernovich? I am good but not *that* good.
In any event, the fact is that there is no effective American Right without Mike Cernovich, and I’d rather be doing space and spirit exploration than using my talents to help some coward like Trump enrich himself at the expense of his good-hearted but gullible remaining supporters.
Can Mike Cernovich Save America?
Is the American Dream dead, Mike? It certainly seems that way to me. The middle class has been slowly dying of a thousand cuts for two whole generations now. Young people can't even save enough money to put a down payment on a house. They're priced out. Journalism is full of the dumb kids of very rich parents who finance their lifestyles. The barriers to entry for business continue to climb higher and the competition is more cut-throat than ever. There is a sense that everyone is in it for themselves, while mouthing platitudes to the contrary. If it's not dead, then where is it alive?
It is the best of times and worst of times for the American Dream. If you’re born into a normal home, you will be taught victimization and demonization. Black or White, the coin has two sides. Nothing and everything thing is your fault. But you can’t change due to Original Sin. A parent can’t send his children to school for a proper education. But those enlightened parents who home school or stage takeovers of their school boards (MAGA rubes will fund candidates who can’t ever win a congressional office but not support a school district election) will have children with the equivalent of super powers. My heart weeps for the 8 year old Mike Cernovich - those poor kids don’t stand a chance. Those parents who follow me and educate their children will find they are raising Aristotles. The elite of old instructed their children via tutors. We now call this method home school pods and co-ops. As far as life goes for men already above 20, they make me sick! Coomers and Doomers (is there a difference?). 100 years ago you’d be drafted to go and fight in the Somme. Read about WWI. You’re not cleaning up the intestines of your best friend off of you while your own foot is one open wound with pus spewing out of your toes. Stop crying you fucking babies. Life has never been better for a man with a little swag and competence.
California was the epitome of the American Dream. I'm old enough to remember it associated with two very specific things: an incredibly high standard of living and a bohemian take on life ("It's a Californian thing”). This was Land's End: a state where the weather was perfect, where jobs were plenty, where you were safe, where the weird could go to get even weirder without anyone bothering them. Sun, surf, and plenty of beautiful, blonde women. Something began to change by the late 1960s, but life was still very pleasant there up until recently. It's only in the past few years where we have been hearing more negative voices compared to those who would casually brush off any criticisms of the Golden State. A positive mindset led to paradise on earth, where ill-fated utopian projects such as the Hippies, Jim Jones' Peoples Temple, and the LA Clippers flourished. Now it seems that it is turning into a dystopia.
Made up my mind, make a new start
Goin' to California with an achin' in my heart
Someone told me there's a girl out there
With love in her eyes and flowers in her hair
When the rest of the world thinks of America they think of California. Specifically sandy beaches, open minded people, and a place where any dream is possible. “Where California goes, the country goes.” Every major trend started in California. If you wanted the best of anything, you went to California. Even the wines are better in California!
But now you can barely walk down San Francisco or Los Angeles without risking your life. I have Croatian fighting genes. Even I have to watch my back.
If I were a nerd, I’d write an article about how music used to focus on moving to California and connecting this to culture. Michael Anton or someone could do that. It’s a genre tho. A soundtrack of songs about California would include everyone from Bob Seger to Poison to The Notorious B.I.G.
She stood there bright as the sun on that California coast
He was a midwestern boy on his own
She looked at him with those soft eyes, so innocent and blue
He knew right then he was too far from home…
Bob Seger’s Hollywood Nights captures nostalgia. You’re young and in love, away from the safety of a small town.
Poison’s Fallen Angel captures the darker side of California:
Just like a lost soul caught up in a Hollywood scene
All the parties and the limousines
Such a good actress hiding all her pain
Trading her memories, for fortune and fame
California is no longer a dream. Cities are a nightmare. The women aren’t even beautiful. Go out to Hollywood and Highland any night of the week. It’s gross.
However California isn’t monolithic. I live in what remains of Paradise. We are a Republican enclave.
I hate being divisive but California is proof that Republicans are more competent and create more livable cities. Hence why California liberals are moving to deep red states.
Even though Poison were horrible thank fuck that you didn’t include Red Hot Chili Peppers.
You've toyed with the idea of running for office. What conditions would have to be met for you to take the plunge? Would you be interested in state office? Or is the Federal level the only stage that interests you?
I feel the calling to run for higher office, and then my older daughter comes outside to let me know I can only smoke a cigar once this week because too many cigars isn’t good for you. We have gymnastics rings hanging from an awning and she grabs onto them. I ask her to show me how strong her grip is. My younger daughter then comes out to start destroying anything she can find, including my strawberry bushes. Later, all of us either go to the park with geese or swim or do both - with some BJJ classes for my older daughter as well. Why would I give this life up? I have a box garden to attend to. I’m attracted to my wife. I ride the Peloton. Some would say run for the people, but even Churchill - the man who saved Europe! - was ultimately tossed aside by British ingrates. I would say that if people want better elected officials, then they should become better voters. What are you doing to cultivate a better leader? Responsibility starts with all of us.
Elite Pedophiles, Women, Ayahuasca, and Taking On Big Shampoo
(Dramatization of the showdown and not a verbatim transcription - ed.)
You took on Big Shampoo and won. But this is only a battle in the bigger war. What are these corporate behemoths doing to our bodies without us knowing? How do we slit the throat of Poison Inc.? You are friendly with the world-famous Greco-Phoenician Mathematician and Black Squid Ink Risotto Enthusiast Nasim Taleb. He too has been on a jihad for us, his target being Monsanto. Are they really 'turning the frogs gay', as Alex Jones (PBUH) claims?
I once went over 5 years without washing my hair. That sounds insane to normies, despite being objectively true. This shows that as much attention as class and income distribution receives, the real gap will be between the knowledge-havers and knowledge-havenots. Do you know how many captains of industry live in fear of their CNN watching Karen wives because, despite success in business, they know nothing of the true nature of humanity? This is most men - living as house slaves. The frogs might not be gay, but the endocrine system of the American man has been estrogenified via environmental plastics. Again, people will say that this is madness. I have no interest in persuading them. My role instead is to guide those brave souls who are willing to dare to live in defiance of their global corporate mind masters.
If we go to your wiki, your name is automatically associated with 'outlandish' conspiracy theories that have been 'debunked'. Yet time and time again the 'debunking' falls apart under scrutiny. One need only look at Epstein-Maxwell to understand that our elites are engaged in all sorts of nefarious behaviours behind closed doors. We only have to glance over at the revelations this past week about how the CDC has been covering up information regarding a lab origin for COVID-19. Should we even bring up the collective meltdown regarding the Trump-Russia hysteria and how it was shown to be complete horseshit? The media resents the rise of alternative sources of journalism so as to maintain control over narratives that they themselves create and propagate. Yet their track record has been horrible compared to many non-mainstream journalists.
Are the editors who have held my page hostage pedophiles themselves or are they merely seeking to protect pedophiles by attempting to discredit me? That’s a question worth asking. My sense is that Wikipedia editors are part of the pedophile-media establishment. Imagine spending more time “debunking” conspiracy theories than investigating pedophile rings. I took down Jeffrey Epstein. This is not bravado and instead is judicially noted fact. My work in the Epstein case gets one sentence in Wiki - when it’s not deleted as often happens, where as minor internet squabbles take up paragraphs. Those who look beyond the veil will find me. And since it takes a higher vibration to understand the true nature of reality, the attacks on me serve as a useful sorting system. Imagine if I were praised by the media. Men who use shampoo would attempt to attend my events. Gross!
"The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything." This is a quote from Friedrich Nietzsche. The position of women has changed since his time. They got the right to vote, to inherit wealth, to enter the workforce, and most importantly of all, to have carefree, casual sex without immediate consequences. Women in the West have won an impressive array of personal freedoms but are now more miserable than they have ever been before. Does Nietzsche's statement still apply today?
A life without beautiful women would not be worth living. The real war is not one on women or on men - it’s on aesthetics. Democrats closed down gyms while leaving liquor stores open. “Celebrities” pushed by media and Hollywood wouldn’t last a week when confronted with Miami’s beauty. Ghastly figures are held as avatars of beauty as part of the nihilistic war on all that is good. (This is also why Hollywood is run by pedophiles. Death eaters seek to harm children, whose innocence is a form of divine brilliance.) The future of any viable right wing political movement will emphasize a return to traditional beauty of men and women. Brunch is cancelled!
(Joe Rogan voice) Mike: Ever try Ayahuasca? What d'ya think?
I don’t do false modesty. I have Life nailed. In the Spirit world, I’m nothing - and that’s beautiful, humbling, and liberating.
I went from a fat asthmatic bullied kid on welfare to a lifetime of achievement. My life is a highlight reel. As one example, look at my John Conyers scoop. 99.9% of journalists will go through a whole career and never have a story like that - which I broke on just another weekday. Everyone says that they want to write a book and make a movie. They rarely do. I’ve done both - and I didn’t do the turn a book into a movie thing. My work spans mindset and life success to journalism and current events and activism. Yes, I also graduated law school and became a lawyer. I’ve enjoyed the finer things in life. I went on 60 Minutes and beat them at their own game. The corporate media wrote books and made movies about me in order to try destroy me. Their attacks only added to my mythos. The biggest complaint people have about me is that they want more books and films. This isn’t due to sheer luck, there is a process I followed. It works.
Ayahuasca showed me that all of my success was a shell created to distract me from deep spiritual and emotional trauma. My success was due to fear - fear of not impressing others, fear that people wouldn’t like me, fear that I would be another one of life’s losers - a random nobody who never mattered. That I worked hard on the outside to run from my inside. That what matters most in life is love. Not the words of love. The feeling of having an open heart - of accepting the joy and knowing to love always means to lose….none of us are immortal and those closest to us will leave or we will leave them first. I’m careful to make sure my daughters know I love them in every moment. They’ll never wonder or have doubts about my love for them, even as they will grow up and begin their own journeys in Life and Spirit.
Now I live - sometimes more successfully than other times - in Love.
It can be frustrating, however, when people attack me. I don’t feel rage or the fight in me. I don’t want to hurt anyone. I realize those who can’t get me out of their minds are living in pain. That my life reminds them of their failures. Or that my presence reflects their dad or maybe the absence of their dad. Men have daddy issues too. Sons of strict fathers want to rebel against me. Sons without fathers turn to criminality as they want any attention - even if that brings severe consequences.
Have I not screamed at God? Have I not challenged Him to strike me down, to prove he is real? I am not comparing myself to God - only that the energy is the same. When our world doesn’t make sense, we blame the masculine because the masculine brings logic and order to the world. It’s only natural for me to be blamed, even if unfairly, by the shadow male energy predominating the world. I love these brothers who seek to hurt me.
Did you know that the more you show love, the more men will try to hate you? That is because you cannot accept love unless you feel worthy of love.
Everyone feels inadequate in their own way. That’s why we we lash out. If everyone is broken then no one is broken, and so everyone carries a hammer. Wouldn’t it be better if we put ourselves together instead of destroying one another? That begins with deep work and learning how to love, starting with loving all of the pain and sorrow we’ve experienced. From there we find joy.
We are spirits occupying bodies. I have much more to learn - and all knowledge worth having is discovered in the heart.
The Part in Which I Challenge Mike Cernovich
Let's play a little word association, but with a twist. Instead of one word we use two, to broaden the potential for replies. I'll start: Chemical, Salty.
Chemically salty = myth. As a heroic figure, the truth about me will always differ from the real truth. In a couple of cases, I copy and pasted bizarre stories from internet message forums onto my own blog. Block quotes weren’t used because it was clear to my then-existing readers that the stories were not about me. None of that matters. The world will believe what it believes. In many cases, people have an idealized version of me. Such is the nature of life as an antihero.
I once caught you praising Vocal House as "the best fucking music there is" and I lost my shit. Vocal House is for extremely feminine gay men who have just come out of the closet, and women. There is no drug known to man that can make that music tolerable. Your taste in music is shit, putting you in the same category as Mike Tracey who once praised Lady Gaga, ffs. There are only three acceptable genres of music for men like us: Gore Metal, Faggy UK New Wave, and 90s Balkan War music taped on poor-quality VHS cassettes.
Musical taste, much like eating bacon, isn’t evidence of masculinity. Vocal House with feminine music is calming. I am a Scorpio and my moon sign is Mars. This means my personality type is Fire. Fire types need balance by cool / water energy. Astrology aside, why wound a man want to listen to demonic male voices? Did you know that “death metal” is used as a form of torture? Here by the way is my current playlist: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4PufJg2E8r7nTTm0ceN8G8.
There is nothing more mysterious than blood. Paracelsus considered it a condensation of light. I believe that the Aryan, Hyperborean blood is that – but not the light of the Golden Sun, not of a galactic sun, but of the light of the Black Sun, of the Green Ray.
The question about blood feels like a trap. Answering it might get me cancelled. It’s important to me that everyone knows that the Democrats are the real racists. Did you know that the Democrats founded the KKK and Hunter Biden said the n-word? Also Joe Biden supported the racist crime bill.
Mel Gibson plays your father in a futuristic Sci-Fi movie in which he, as Galaxy Emperor of the 4th Quadrant, is held hostage by evil forces of the Librul Confederation. Your father is worshipped as the incarnation of the Chosen One, and you are tasked to rescue him from his prison cell. Your brain, swollen on powerful Space Nootropics from the Orion Belt, devises a clever way to infiltrate the dungeon complex where he is being held. You seducing/date-rape Empress Marcotta, lulling her into a season-long sleep powered by Ayahuasca from Alpha Centauri. With the Space Guards distracted by her condition, you manage to spring your father, Mel Gibson, free from his cell. "Father, our people await the Chosen One. It is time!" "No son", replies Mel. "I am not The Chosen One. For it is you, Michael Cernovich of Orange County, first of His Name, that is the Chosen One. I have known it all along. So now must everyone in the Known Universe as well. I worship thee, my God, Michael Cernovich!" /end scene.
Would you watch this?
The plot outline follows the classic hero’s journey except that the mentor/father is replaced by the young man instead of being killed (which forces the man to confront reality on his own). Which reminds me….because my audience is younger and male, I get attacked by them often. They are subconsciously trying to murder me! That’s how deep the hero’s journey is embedded in our minds. They aren’t aware of these archetypical drives, which is why they cry when I block them. This means they are reduced to a mess. Gentlemen, you don’t “kill the master” until you’ve studied extensively. And when I click over at your profiles, it’s clear you’re slobs. Would anyone want to read a book about your life? If not, then think twice before you talk big online. You’re not impressing - or fooling - anyone!
When not being a devoted father and husband, or tending to his strawberry bushes and box garden, Mike Cernovich can be found at www.cernovich.com and dispensing wisdom for the ages on Twitter @Cernovich.